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June 6, 2017 at 10:44 pm #101653
Nick Radge
KeymasterIn 2000/2001 I sat on the ‘couch’ of a psychologist for 2-hours every week for 6-months.
I thought I went to see him about my trading.
Yet that line of thought lasted all of two sessions.
Instead it became a deep dive about everything else going on in my life.
Why is this important?
Because much of what we read about psychology is what I would call ‘pop psychology’.
Surface stuff. Conscious thinking.
But the sh*t affecting your trading is in a place your can’t access – your subconscious, and therefore you can’t change.
And because it’s buried deep in your subconscious you don’t actually realise it exists and therefore can’t change it.
Which is why a psychologist makes you sit o the couch and do all the talking.
YOU need to come to your own conclusions about the junk going on in your head. The role of a psychologist is to simply facilitate your own subconscious truths.
My point?
If you have some bad stuff going on then you’ll need professional help. No amount of ‘pop psychology’ reading will help.
My interim advice?
Be aware of your conscious thoughts. Then think beyond those. Think right down below the surface. It will be hard. It will be uncomfortable. But that’s where the truth lies.
That said, for the sake of helping, this new thread is an area to discuss thoughts, ideas, ideals and whatever else you feel is holding you back.
And yes, I know a few psychologists.
June 10, 2019 at 6:35 am #107075MichaelRodwell
MemberNick – you had already been trading for over 15 years. What was the trigger to get on the couch?
June 12, 2019 at 6:37 pm #110094TimothyStrickland
MemberGood points Nick,
I went to go see a trader psychologist a couple of years ago after blowing up 3 small trading accounts. Oddly enough, we didn’t talk about trading that much but about my limiting beliefs and everything else you mentioned there. It helped a lot and after that I stopped sabotaging my trades.
The feelings never went away, self doubt, FOMO, comparison to others but at least I have learned to calm them enough to do what my system says ANYWAY. Sometimes its harder than others, for instance last month it got tough again.
I still think my biggest issue is FOMO. For instance, momentum system went to cash and I watched the market skyrocket the last few days which was frustrating to watch. Fortunately, I heard your voice in my head, “Next 1000 trades”. I can still get tempted but I rarely act on it anymore thankfully!
June 12, 2019 at 10:15 pm #110103KeymasterQuote:For instance, momentum system went to cash and I watched the market skyrocket the last few days which was frustrating to watchYes. I’ll be writing an article on this exact event today or tomorrow.
June 12, 2019 at 10:17 pm #110104MemberLooking forward to it, would love to have your insight
June 13, 2019 at 4:46 am #110105MemberThanks for sharing that Tim. I’m looking forward to the article too. Since I started asking questions here is where my head is at right now.
This time around my mindset on trading has been far better than in the past. I realised that previously:
– I wanted desperately to make money and hadn’t truly taken responsibility for my decisions. I traded Nick’s systems and only in hindsight I realised I blamed him for losses or attributed him the glory for the wins. To me this didnt feel right when I was still the one pulling the trigger. I determined I was better off giving the money to someone to invest/ trade or doing everything for myself (with a mentor!)
– I didnt really have any idea what I was doing and coming off 7 very successful property deals I kept comparing my property investing results to my trading. Clearly stupid. In addition to comparing I created FOMO on the property side when the point of trading was to diversify. I’d lost sight of what my objective was
– I’ve learnt a lot about myself since I started trading (got married, had a couple of kids, moved countries etc) and realised that money is not the most important thing. As long as I have what I deem to be enough, its just a background issue that isn’t to be worried about. This doesn’t limit my drive but it allows me to accept where I’m at.
– Right now I’m trading my retirement account. Psychologically this is easier for me because of the following:
– Even though it’s very liquid, I can’t touch the money for at least another 30 years
– I could hand the money over to a fund but the performance is poor and the drawdowns large. So if i run into some big drawdowns its nothing that I wouldnt have to experience if someone else was running my account. In addition, because the money is tied up, theres nothing to do with it but keep trading.
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In regards to going to cash/ index filter. I benefited from my momentum system staying in the market and am at equity ATH as of typing. I can’t help but feel good about this but I keep trying to remind myself that the thing to feel good about is following my system.June 13, 2019 at 5:45 am #110109KeymasterQuote:I traded Nick’s systems and only in hindsight I realised I blamed him for losses or attributed him the glory for the wins.Pffft…rather I get blamed for losses and never have wins mentioned…
June 13, 2019 at 8:52 am #110111MemberHAHAH… thought you might like that one!
You poor thing… all those unhappy people not taking responsibility for themselves!
June 19, 2019 at 1:42 pm #110113MemberMike, sounds like a good strategy for you! For me, if it wasn’t for Nick, not sure I’d still be a trader right now. Seems to be getting easier for me (from an emotional side) as I keep following the system everyday.
September 26, 2022 at 10:27 pm #110125KateMoloney
ParticipantThis thread is so relevant given what has been happening lately.
September 30, 2022 at 7:59 am #107076JulianCohen
ParticipantI’m just reading Best Loser Wins by Tom Hougaard, which is a good read but has got me thinking, especially as my day trade strategy is at an all time MDD at the moment; I’m sure I’m not alone in this.
The one thing that stands out to me from reading this book, is that when things are uncomfortable in trading, like they are now, the discretionary trader has a number of tools in the mental arsenal in order to fool their brain into thinking that they are doing something to “fix the problem”. For us as systematic traders, we have already done a lot of these things when we built our systems in the first place. We have tested a trillion times, stress tested to try to disprove our strategy, examined the effect of changing every parameter, added parameters, removed parameters, tested changes to position size etc etc etc… and our mental fall back is to trust the system and keep pushing the buttons. I think this is a much more difficult thing to do.
Discretionary traders are trying to fix a problem, which is a natural human reaction to a perceived issue. We have to view the situation as if there is no problem. Profits come and profits go, drawdowns are part of the game. I think that being a systematic trader is so much more difficult for that very reason. We can’t fool our brains into fixing the problem as there is no problem to fix. It’s just bloody uncomfortable and we have to train ourselves to cop it sweet and get on with it. We have to be the Buddhist monks of trading. Having said that, I listened to Jason Shapiro on a podcast the other day and he said pretty much exactly this, and he is totally discretionary. He said win some, lose some, and as long as the winners outdo the losers, then you’ll be OK
September 30, 2022 at 9:11 pm #115065KeymasterNice thoughts. Thanks.
I’ve been recommended that book by a few people. Looks like I’ll need to get a copy.
October 1, 2022 at 7:58 pm #115066RobertMontgomery
ParticipantHere is the link to his manual for free https://tradertom.com/resource/psychology-book/
September 26, 2023 at 10:33 pm #115075KeymasterExperiencing stress, anxiety, or pressure when trading is not a function of a strategy. It’s more likely that the strategy is not suitable for you.
As such, explore other strategies that are more likely to ease that pressure.
October 23, 2023 at 11:31 pm #115815KeymasterI’ve been listening to a few podcasts and reading similar topics about how we (others) talk to ourselves (others)
The book I’ve been reading is Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman. It’s a tough read but basically, the context is that negative talk as a pessimist will cause depression. But speaking to oneself with optimism completely removes depression and increases performance.
The other, a podcast, was a random selection from Dr Andrew Huberman that I enjoy listening to. But it’s also other scientific evidence about how we affect performance by the way we speak to ourselves, or how we speak to children/others. He talks about praise or performance label mindset vs verb or action label mindset. The former detracts from performance while the latter increases performance.
I found this one very fascinating and very much trading-orientated.https://podcast.app/how-to-enhance-performance-learning-by-applying-a-growth-mindset-e336231381/?utm_source=and&utm_medium=share
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